Veteran's Day -Remember

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Justin Tiveri, France, 107, one of 6 surviving French vets of WWI.


Tommy Patch, Britain, 107, one of a "handful" of surviving British vets









And when that fellah died, he just said one word: `Mother.' It wasn't a cry of despair. It was a cry or surprise and joy. I think - although I wasn't allowed to see her - I am sure his mother was in the next world to welcome him. And he knew it. I was just allowed to see that much and no more. And from that day until today - and now I'm nearly 106 years old - I shall always remember that cry and I shall always remember that death is not the end.





Jerome a Paris's diary (http://jerome-a-paris.dailykos.com/) :: ::

There are six surviving French vets of World War I (there were 15 last year - see this page (http://dersdesders.free.fr/france.html) for the full list of those that died in recent years). Le Monde interviewed (http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3230,36-708425,0.html) four of them on the occasion of l'Armistice, i.e. the anniversary of the date, 11 November 1918, when the end of the war was signed. I can't do justice to that great article, so go read it if you can.



The BBC has similar stories here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwone/last_tommy_gallery.shtml). Read Harry Patch (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwone/last_tommy_gallery_03.shtml)'s testmony from which the quote above the fold and the one below are taken (thanks to RogueTrooper over at the European Tribune):









You daren't show above otherwise a sniper would have you. You used to look between the fire and apertures and all you could see was a couple of stray dogs out there, fighting over a biscuit that they'd found. They were fighting for their lives. And the thought came to me - well, there they are, two animals out there fighting over dog biscuit, the same as we get to live. They were fighting for their lives. I said, `We are two civilised nations - British and German - and what were we doing? We were in a lousy, dirty trench fighting for our lives? For what? For eighteen pence a flipping day.'







In many ways, 11 November is still a much more important holiday in France than the end of WWII (also a holiday, on 8 May). WWI, also called "La Grande Guerre" marks the real end of France as a major power, as the country effectively lost the will to fight after that senseless orgy of death and destruction. Having "won", the country had to face the senselessness of that war (Germany, despite the fact that it faced the same levels of death and absurdity, was still to burn with the desire for revenge after the humiliation of "losing", and would require yet another war to learn the same lesson) and, effectivly, said "never again". Every family, every village was bled to death of its young men. Northeastern France was ravaged, with a number of village abandoned, never to be reoccupied. Bombs and ammunition are still found with regularity on construction sites, in fields. Death and destruction were everywhere, their absurdity impossible to hide - and it is still seared in the collective memory of the country.

Is this the only way to learn that war is not smart? By experiencing total destruction?

Is this what awaits us?

Stolen from http://www.dailykos.com (http://www.dailykos.com/)

[TheGrudge]

Veterans Day used to be known as Armistis Day. It was a day that celebrated peace. It used to be that on the 11th month, on the 11th day, at the 11th hour five minutes of silence was to be observed.

Why did they change it to Veterans Day? I always thought that Memorial day was the perfect day to honor the Vets.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/vetsday/vetshist.htm

THE HISTORY OF VETERAN'S DAY Unknown US soldier from the North Africa American Cemetery 1918

World War I, then normally referred to simply as The Great War (no one could imagine any war being greater!), ended with the implementation of an armistice[temporary cessation of hostilities—in this case until the final peace treaty, the infamous Treaty of Versailles, was signed in 1919] between the Allies and Germany at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of November, 1918.

1919

November 11: President Wilson proclaims the first Armistice Day with the following words: "To us in America, the reflections of armistice Day will be filled with solemn pride in the heroism of those who died in the country’s service and with gratitude for the victory, both because of the thing from which it has freed us and because of the opportunity it has given America to show her sympathy with peace and justice in the councils of the nations…" The original concept for the celebration was for the suspension of business for a two minute period beginning at 11 A.M., with the day also marked by parades and public mettings.

1920

On the second anniversary of the armistice, France and the United Kingdom hold ceremonies honoring their unknown dead from the war. In America, at the suggestion of church groups, President Wilson names the Sunday nearest Armistice Day Sunday, on which should be held services in the interest of international peace. 1921

Congress passes legislation approving the establishment of a Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery. November 11 is chosen for the date of the ceremony. According on October 20, Congress declares November 11, 1921 a legal Federal holiday to honor all those who participated in the war. The ceremony was conducted with great success.

1926

Congress adopts a resolution directing the President to issue an annual proclamation calling on the observance of Armistice Day. Throughout the 1920s and 1930s, most states establish November 11 as a legal holiday and at the Federal level, an annual proclamation is issued by the President.

1938

Congress passes legislation on May 13 making November 11 a legal Federal holiday, Armistice Day. The United States has no ‘actual’ national holidays because the states retain the right to designate their own holidays. The Federal government can in fact only designate holidays for Federal employees and for the District of Columbia. But in practice the states almost always follow the Federal lead in designation of holidays. 1941- 1945 1950- 1953

World War II and the Korean War create millions of additional war veterans in addition to those of the First World War already honored by Armistice Day. 1954

On June 1, President Eisenhower signs legislation changing the name of the legal holiday from Armistice Day to Veteran’s Day.

1968 Congress passes the Monday Holiday Law which established the fourth Monday in October as the new date for the observance of Veteran’s Day. The law is to take effect in 1971.

1971-1975

The Federal observance of Veterans Day is held on the fourth Monday of October. Initially all states follow suit except Mississippi and South Dakota. Other states changed their observances back to November 11 as follows: 1972- Louisiana and Wisconsin; 1974- Kentucky, Arkansas, Connecticut, Georgia, Maine, South Carolina, West Virginia; 1975- California, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, Utah, West Virginia, Wyoming

1975

Legislation passed to return the Federal observance of Veteran’s Day to November 11, based on popular support throughout the nation. Since the change to the fourth Monday in October, 46 states had either continued to commemorate November 11 or had reverted back to the original date based on popular sentiment. The law was to take effect in 1978.

1978 Veteran’s Day observance reverts to November 11.

[Woodrow]

Tiny Tim, is this your serious thread?

[Yat-Yas]

Veterans Day used to be known as Armistis Day. It was a day that celebrated peace. It used to be that on the 11th month, on the 11th day, at the 11th hour five minutes of silence was to be observed.

Why did they change it to Veterans Day? I always thought that Memorial day was the perfect day to honor the Vets.

Memorial Day is to honor War Dead
Armistice Day was the end of WWI, later changed to Veterans Day to honor all the Veterans who served to protect our Country.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Memorial Day is to honor War Dead
Armistice Day was the end of WWI, later changed to Veterans Day to honor all the Veterans who served to protect our Country.






Thank you.

[TheGrudge]

Memorial Day is to honor War Dead
Armistice Day was the end of WWI, later changed to Veterans Day to honor all the Veterans who served to protect our Country.






I always thought the concept of Amistice day had more meaing to it. It was a celebration of what the boys fought for.

Veterans day has a different connotation to it. It seems a celebration of warfare and the Veteran gets lost. Armistice Day I felt was always about what every veteran deired in was, serenity and peace.

[Tayken]

Let's see war has ended slavery, nazism, and communism, and has made big strides to fight and stop terrorism. I'm scared to think of where the world would be today if we didn't fight in most of those wars.

[Yat-Yas]

I always thought the concept of Amistice day had more meaing to it. It was a celebration of what the boys fought for.

Veterans day has a different connotation to it. It seems a celebration of warfare and the Veteran gets lost. Armistice Day I felt was always about what every veteran deired in was, serenity and peace.

Armistice Day had it's signifigance in that it was supposed to be the end to the War to end all Wars....a true 'celebration'.....politics, greed and selfishness did away with that.

Memorial day and now Veterans Day, are not 'celebrations' per se...they are solemn Days with Memorial Day being the most solemn....these days are set aside to pay homage to those that fought for the freedoms we all have.

Freedom has a different flavor to those that have fought, bled, or died for it.....a flavor that those who didn't....... will never taste or understand.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Armistice Day had it's signifigance in that it was supposed to be the end to the War to end all Wars....a true 'celebration'.....politics, greed and selfishness did away with that.

Memorial day and now Veterans Day, are not 'celebrations' per se...they are solemn Days with Memorial Day being the most solemn....these days are set aside to pay homage to those that fought for the freedoms we all have.

Freedom has a different flavor to those that have fought, bled, or died for it.....a flavor that those who didn't....... will never taste or understand.

Thanks again. That was how I understood the difference.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Let's see war has ended slavery, nazism, and communism, and has made big strides to fight and stop terrorism. I'm scared to think of where the world would be today if we didn't fight in most of those wars.

I didn't really want to debate on this particular thread, but I take great exception to the comment that war has "made big strides to fight and stop terrorism." That is a rather big assumption, and I can't just let it slide as an "observation."

[Woodrow]

I didn't really want to debate on this particular thread, but I take great exception to the comment that war has "made big strides to fight and stop terrorism." That is a rather big assumption, and I can't just let it slide as an "observation."



I didn't really want to debate on this particular thread


Hey Tiny Tim, why don't you extend the same courtesy to others? Are you Hypocrite? Do as you say, not as you do? Fuck up other peoples threads, but by god, leave yours alone?

Ya know, while you were failing at writing, failing at public access tv, (Who the fuck fails at that) and failing at your other endeavors, the people you mock served this country.

[TheGrudge]

Armistice Day had it's signifigance in that it was supposed to be the end to the War to end all Wars....a true 'celebration'.....politics, greed and selfishness did away with that.

Memorial day and now Veterans Day, are not 'celebrations' per se...they are solemn Days with Memorial Day being the most solemn....these days are set aside to pay homage to those that fought for the freedoms we all have.

Freedom has a different flavor to those that have fought, bled, or died for it.....a flavor that those who didn't....... will never taste or understand.

Everyone fights for freedom in their own way. That's how I've always viewed it. I also think that everyone looks at freedom differently. As a matter of fact, I would say that those who we do fight are fighting for their freedom in their own way.

Vietnam tends to be a sticky subject in that manner. I would say the same goes for Iraq. In many ways they are simialar. What I find interesting is WWII which sometimes gets passed off as a fight for freedom. What about the freedoms of those living here at home in that time period?

Blacks and Japanese alike? We put Japanese Americans in containment camps and fought WWII with a segregated millitary. I think this freedom question needs to be put on the table with all facts available to air themselves out.

WWII was a fight against the Nazis but was the holocaust the reason why we went? Germany did declare war on us as did Japan. Atrocities against the Jews were going on long before we decided to join the fight. We even participated in the Olympic games in Nazi Germany.

Was this a war based on offering freedom? The people who fought and stormed the beaches on Normandy may have felt so. Perhaps that was a motivating factor. We must also take into consideration that those that fight these wars have no control over the ideals.

What's your opinion?

[Tayken]

I didn't really want to debate on this particular thread, but I take great exception to the comment that war has "made big strides to fight and stop terrorism." That is a rather big assumption, and I can't just let it slide as an "observation."
Really? There really hasn't been another attack on US shores since 9/11. Unfortunately you don't get to read about the many plots that were stopped, due to capturing or killing terrorist operatives.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Really? There really hasn't been another attack on US shores since 9/11. Unfortunately you don't get to read about the many plots that were stopped, due to capturing or killing terrorist operatives.

None of that speaks to War reducing Terrorism. Worldwide, terrorism has dramatically increased. Increased security measures, cutting funding, and exposing cells to scrutiny reduce terrorism, not war.

I'm going to stick with my position that no serious case has been made that War reduces Terrorism.

[Tayken]

None of that speaks to War reducing Terrorism. Worldwide, terrorism has dramatically increased. Increased security measures, cutting funding, and exposing cells to scrutiny reduce terrorism, not war.

I'm going to stick with my position that no serious case has been made that War reduces Terrorism.
Well then we seriously disagree. To remain passive and do nothing is asking for total ruin.

[Fair &Balanced Who Ca]

Well then we seriously disagree. To remain passive and do nothing is asking for total ruin.

Well, we disagree about War reducing terrorism, but not on passivity. I agree that reamaining passive and doing nothing is asking for total ruin. I believe in increased security measures, cutting funding, and exposing terrorist cells so that they are unable to operate in secrecy.

[Yat-Yas]

Everyone fights for freedom in their own way. That's how I've always viewed it. I also think that everyone looks at freedom differently. As a matter of fact, I would say that those who we do fight are fighting for their freedom in their own way.

Vietnam tends to be a sticky subject in that manner. I would say the same goes for Iraq. In many ways they are simialar. What I find interesting is WWII which sometimes gets passed off as a fight for freedom. What about the freedoms of those living here at home in that time period?

Blacks and Japanese alike? We put Japanese Americans in containment camps and fought WWII with a segregated millitary. I think this freedom question needs to be put on the table with all facts available to air themselves out.

WWII was a fight against the Nazis but was the holocaust the reason why we went? Germany did declare war on us as did Japan. Atrocities against the Jews were going on long before we decided to join the fight. We even participated in the Olympic games in Nazi Germany.

Was this a war based on offering freedom? The people who fought and stormed the beaches on Normandy may have felt so. Perhaps that was a motivating factor. We must also take into consideration that those that fight these wars have no control over the ideals.

What's your opinion?

You raise many questions....no real opinions. The concept that WWII was not fought for freedoms sake is absurd; Japan (remember Pearl Harbor?)was taking complete control of the Pacific west of Hawaii, Nazi Germany was attempting the same thing in Europe from France, east thru Russia. Yes, Freedom was at stake. Sitting by while the atrocities committed on the Jews was not a 'right' thing, that point's been argued over the years....so, looking forward a few years, would the same thing be said about the Kurds? About the Iraqi people as a whole?

Implying that the insurgents(jihadists)in Iraq are fighting for 'freedom' is also absurd, their's is also a war of domination, World domination. Iran's leader calls for Israel to be wiped off the map, islamic leaders are wanting the 'infidels' dead(no, not all of Islam....but enough to make an attempt at it)...so ends the Iraq/VietNam similarity, leave it there. Freedom for the people of south VietNam was at stake, had their government had any semblence of stability and our Government any cajones....they would be living in Freedom like the South Koreans. I've spoken with many, many South Vietnamese and they are all of the same opinion.

For the record....the Japanese were put into Internment Camps, that was 1941...not 2005, no political correctness remember? The Japanese did sneak attack Pearl Harbor, so the reasoning was legitimate for that period. Blacks fought in WW! and WW!!....bravely and well...it took way too long for them to overcome racism and bigotry but they managed, for this I'm glad.

Now a question for you grudge....have you ever lost your Freedom? What would you do to preserve it and not lose it?